Understand the Double: Matana Roberts Speaks

Photo courtesy of the artist.

by Sarah Thomas

Matana Roberts returns to The Jazz Gallery on Friday, along with bassist Brandon Lopez and drummer Tomas Fujiwara. A longtime member of the Gallery community, Roberts continues to bring a spirit of openness and exploration to their performances. We had a chance to chat with them last week about the idea of anti-composition, the value of empathy and positive energy in collaboration, and their next chapter of the ongoing Coin Coin project.

TJG: Could you tell me about your trio concert coming up at The Jazz Gallery?

Matana Roberts: The Gallery is a very special place for me. This is the Gallery’s second location, but at the first location I really cut my teeth in that room. I have so many great stories about that early time. The first bastion of support I got in New York City was from The Jazz Gallery. At that time, they would go to shows and approach musicians directly afterwards, saying, “Hey, I'm from The Jazz Gallery. Would you be interested in bringing something to the Gallery?” And that’s unusual. 

So The Jazz Gallery has always been a very special spot for me. I've watched them really try to shift with time and stay committed to a very particular ethos. To me, the Gallery is always a good home space to bring new things that I'm trying to develop. Most of the work I make, people want to call it mixed media, or people talk to me a lot about alternative modes of notation. But this trio is more about anti-composition and composition in real time coming from a different energy route. 

I’m really inspired by a couple of saxophone players—Fred Anderson, may he rest in peace, and another great saxophonist, Peter Brötzmann, who died several weeks ago. He was someone I was getting a little mentorship from and I was supposed to see him soon. I'm supposed to play a festival he was putting on in September, and I played a bill with him on a tour last fall. He was very committed to what we're calling anti-composition and talking about energy playing.

I don't really believe there's such a thing as anti-composition. I think all playing is composition in real time. But I wanted to get an opportunity not to deal so much with the structures I try to encase musicians in. I love doing that because it's fun for me and it's fun for them, and I'd like to release a little bit of that control. I want to dig into the energy of the moment in a different kind of way than I do in my other work. 

So drummer Tomas Fujiwara is someone I've known for ages. I'm really proud of him and the way in which he has stayed committed to his craft. He's had many opportunities to go in different directions, and he's chosen not to. I really respect him for that. Bassist Brandon Lopez is someone I find really fascinating musically. We share a lot of people in common, and I love all the people that he creates with. He has a sound I find really interesting. 

Honestly, all of my gigs are about experiments in real time—experimentalism for the sake of experimentalism first. Everything else is kind of secondary for me. But there are a lot of things that are going to happen during this show that I cannot predict. It's a tad frightening, but also really exciting.

TJG: Have you worked together as a trio prior to this gig?

MR: No. This is completely new. I'm probably going to expand this group a little bit, maybe by one additional person. But for this gig, I want to try out the root of the sound. I know Tomas’s sound really well, but I only know Brandon’s sound from recordings. We've actually never played music together outside of preparing for this gig. So I'm really excited because I feel like Brandon brings an energy that very much reminds me of the roots of where I come from in improvised music. He has a spirit and positive vibe, and Tomas has the same thing. 

To play this kind of music, I have to be careful who I decide to work with. It takes a certain kind of empathy and connection to openness that's really important. I've been in a few situations in my past where I’ve made a mistake with that, and it can get really hostile on the bandstand. 

So I see this trio as really good vibrations in the room, and with the positivity of being in the Gallery space as well. There's so much love that has gone into keeping the Gallery afloat and I'm really excited to come back to the space.

TJG: Some of your work has been described as, “...pay[ing] ode to the building blocks of American and European Free Jazz expression.” What does that look like for you?

MR: Whatever this art life I'm having right now is, it's about a globalist reminder of how we're all connected in ways that were not so apparent to me when I first started out. I didn't imagine that I’d get to do all the things I've gotten to do and go all the places I've gotten to go so far. My whole perspective around what my place in the world really is has shifted quite widely. 

I am rooted in American creative music expression from my head to my toes. But it's interesting understanding that creative music expression crosses all sorts of cultures and ideas of difference, and I've been exposed to a great number of them. I'm just trying to figure out the best way to synthesize that. 

The European Free Jazz tradition—there are some things about it that are not for me, but there are other things about it that I love. There's a commitment to sound that I really recognize. One thing I've experienced sometimes in those traditions is an imbalance of music staying super aggressive, and I'm not really that person. But I've played a lot with many European musicians, and they’ve taught me so much about how to stay open in ways that I wasn’t really thinking about. 

I try to remember that we as Americans are really annoying. We're so centrist about our concerns. I talk to European musicians and hear them say, “The only reason we pay attention to what goes on in America is because it reverberates into issues that are going on in our country. We know that some form of this is going to get to us, and we watch so we can try to catch it before it does.” 

There's a certain privilege that Americanness seems to foster. That's a complicated thing to say as a Black body running around in the world. But it is something that I'm trying to grapple with and understand, and I've been lucky enough to be around a lot of people from other countries who understand the double of those things. I've been involved with different social systems in different countries. It's been really interesting to see where some issues may feel more balanced in different places while they're also struggling with other things. 

I’m trying to use music as a way to understand my world, and my world is really mixed in ways I could have never imagined. I'm still in shock about it. As a traveling person, I've gotten better at trying to be quieter and trying to listen a little more.

TJG: Shifting in another direction, you have Chapter 5 of your project Coin Coin coming out soon. How has that project been for you recently?

MR: Yes. It's so exciting. I brought the first chapter of Coin Coin to The Jazz Gallery. They let me do so many things in that space without asking me too many questions, which is so amazing. Coin Coin Chapter 5: In the Garden comes out September 29th. 

Things are kind of on a lopsided schedule. I feel like everyone's still trying to get used to being back. We're not quite post-COVID yet. My return to everything was a lot slower than most people I know, because I have pre-existing conditions that made it very difficult. So my return to scheduling and getting things together has been like a catch-as-catch-can. We originally wanted the record to come out a bit sooner, but we weren't able to pull all the parts together and make it happen. 

But it’s coming out on September 29th and it features an incredible band of folk, most of whom have come through the Gallery. It's a little painful, because Jaimie Branch was supposed to play on the record. I couldn't bring myself to put someone in her place. It just didn't seem possible. I really wanted her sound on the record, but also her positive energy. 

Everyone involved in Chapter 5 has the same stream of energy I'm talking about with Tomas and Brandon. It’s a love of sound fellowship. It’s not just love of being able to make sound. It's the sound that we make together.

The project is taking much longer than I ever wanted it to take. One of the first Coin Coin gigs I played was at the Gallery, and that would have been in 2006 or 2007. I thought I would be done with it in 2011. I had it all mapped out. 

Originally, it was going to be ten chapters. I divided the work into ten stories I was really interested in digging into more, both from a research base and to challenge myself as a composer. But then I realized I had forgotten one of my favorite structures of music making, which is solo playing. So I added on two more chapters, still not thinking it was going to take as long as it has. 

It didn't take a long time to find space to put it on. I owe a lot of venues for the support, including the Gallery. But it took a long time to find the right record label for it. Another thing that was happening is that I started getting more work as a visual artist, as well as more new music and commission work. So instead of saying no to stuff, I just kept saying yes. It's okay to say no, but everything I've been offered really piques my curiosity and has allowed me to expand my creative practice in new ways.

TJG: Do you have other projects you’d like people to know about?

MR: Right after the Gallery, I go to Europe for a while. I'll be playing a series of solo shows in Scandinavia, England, Germany, and Scotland. I would also love for people to check out Tomas’s and Brandon’s work, because they are both putting out really amazing stuff.

Find out more about Brandon Lopez and Tomas Fujiwara at these links:

Brandon Lopez | Website | Bandcamp

Tomas Fujiwara | Website | Bandcamp

Matana Roberts plays The Jazz Gallery on Friday, August 18. The group features Matana Roberts on woodwinds, Brandon Lopez on bass, and Tomas Fujiwara on drums. Sets are at 7:30 and 9:30 p.m. ET. $30 general admission ($15 for members), $40 cabaret seating ($25 for members), $20 Livestream ($5 for members). General Admission & Livestream: Free with SUMMERPASS. Purchase tickets here.